From executive producersGreg BerlantiandSera Gamble, who also wrote the first episode, and based onCaroline Kepnes’ best-selling novel of the same name, the Lifetime drama seriesYougets deep inside the head of bookstore manager Joe Goldberg (Penn Badgley, in an unsettling creepy performance that will stick with you), who crosses paths with an aspiring writer, named Guinevere Beck (Elizabeth Lail), that he quickly finds himself obsessed with. Using the internet and social media to gather the most intimate details of her life as a way to get close to her, what seemingly starts as a crush quickly becomes something much more dangerous.
During this 1-on-1 interview with Collider, showrunner Sera Gamble talked about why she wanted to tell this story, how she ended up teaming with Greg Berlanti, the evolution from Showtime to Lifetime, getting inside of the main character’s head, dropping F-bombs, whether audiences should root for Joe and Beck as a couple, and that they already have a good sense of what Season 2 will be.
Collider: The last time we spoke was forThe Magicians, and we had quite an interesting conversation about the use of language in that series. There’s a little bit of that in this show, too. Has it been more or less difficult, withYou?
SERA GAMBLE: You mean dropping F-bombs?
GAMBLE: It was actually a similar conversation because it sets a precedent for Lifetime, as well. They had been dropping sound on that word in the past and not using it. I had a conversation with our executives, and then our creative partners, and I was like, “Look, we just went through this onThe Magicians, and I feel like it makes the show feel more adult and more real. It reflects the way that we talk. We’re ambitious withYou. We want it to feel like we’re not pulling any punches. So can we have some ‘fucks’ please?”
How did they react to that?
GAMBLE: I don’t know if they were necessarily prepared for how passionate I am about language, and I am passionate about it. We talked about the specifics of how much they could do while being respectful of the existing structures that they have, and the guidelines and regulations. I try not to get too granular about it, but I do respect that they have a process they have to go through. I don’t need a ton of “fucks,” but I need a few “fucks.” They gave them to me, and I’m very, very grateful.
Did you have to fight for each one?
GAMBLE: No. It was just a protracted, lively conversation. But everybody has been incredibly supportive of the show, and very respectful of the crazy shit that writers seem to take very seriously. You want to push yourself to really be hard on your writing, so we’re not throwing that word in, instead of doing the work of making sure it’s a good scene, but having it in your pocket for emergencies is good.
It seems like there are situations where it would sound really funny if you tried to use that word.
GAMBLE: When you’re making a show that has sex, adult situations, and really brutal violence, in moments, it becomes very apparent to you that the standards that we hold violence to are shockingly different in our culture. We’re much more comfortable seeing a lot of blood than we are hearing certain words come out of people’s mouths, or seeing people in certain sexual situations, or even seeing too much of their bodies. Over the years, the more that I’ve done this, the more that I question why those differences exist, and it makes me uncomfortable to think that we are so immune to violence that it doesn’t affect us the same way, so we tolerate a much higher level without thinking that it’s extreme. So, in general, when I approach something like this, I’m like, “How can I be sure the audience is awake and conscious of what we’re doing?” It’s all in service to that.
It must be really cool to be working on a TV series that was a straight-to-series order, and you’ve already been picked up for Season 2.
GAMBLE: It’s pretty rarefied. I’m very excited. I’m especially grateful because Greg Berlanti and Sarah Schechter really are as fantastic to work for and with as they seem. They’re so supportive of their showrunners and of their writing teams. I am grateful, every day, that I get to work with such incredible people. And that’s with both shows. Maybe I did something good, in a past life.
How did you end up teaming up with them? Had you been talking before this about trying to do something together?
GAMBLE: Yeah. I’ve known Greg for a few years. Coming off ofSupernatural, I had a script deal at Warner Brothers, and they [team up] writers with their producers, so I sat down with him and we clicked right away. I wrote a pilot that he was going to produce, and it didn’t get picked up, but we stayed on each other’s radar. When he called me with this, it was like, “Good! Finally! Let’s do it!” I was especially excited when he said that he wanted to co-write it because he has so many projects that he can’t write all of them. But he cared about this one, and really wanted to get in there and get his hands dirty, as it were. I was excited to be writing partners with him, on this one. He’s just in the right job, and because of that, if he feels stress for having so many projects, at the same time, it certainly doesn’t show and is not felt by the people who are working with him.
This show was originally developed for Showtime, right?
GAMBLE: Yes.
Has it evolved quite a bit since then, or do you feel like you’re making the show that you always wanted to make?
GAMBLE: It’s not terribly different. We wrote a draft for them, and it just became clear that we didn’t have the exact same vision for the direction of the show, but that happens frequently. They were very friendly about it and very supportive. And writing this for Lifetime has not been terribly different. I think that the nature of that network is such that their executives are more likely to ask questions about female characters, and they’re more likely to ask for more from the secondary female characters, but I love notes like that. I really love it when the note asks me to go deeper and to get a little ballsier, if you will. I like to be pushed and asked questions. And the questions that Lifetime was asking were really interesting.
Whenever a man is running a show that’s focused on a woman, there seems to always be those questions of, “Well, how can a guy tell a woman’s story?” but in this case, it’s a woman telling a man’s story. Have people been asking you how you can get inside a man’s head?
GAMBLE: The truth of it is, if I couldn’t write men well, I would have been unemployed, a long time ago. The great majority of speaking roles, in all of film and television, are men. We’ve seen the statistics. Writers who happen to be women cannot afford to only be able to write women, just the same way that when we look at diverse writers, writers of color cannot afford to only be able to write for [people of color]. Nor is any good writer truly limited by their own personal experience. I do think that it’s interesting that the conversation now is around how sometimes writers can get a little lazy about those other characters, and that’s not okay. We ask more questions about, “Why is this female character in the show?,” and “Why is she so predictable to us?,” and “Why doesn’t she have the depth and nuance that the man on the poster does?” I’m glad that we’re asking those questions.
And with this show, you really get deep inside of your male lead because we get to hear so much of his thoughts.
GAMBLE: Being a woman in the world, I think virtually any woman that you ask would say that there are times when she feels, for her own safety, that she should attempt to understand what is going through a man’s mind. That’s something that appealed to me, from the beginning. I want to understand what coaxes behavior of this nature out of that very tiny percentage of men. I like to think it’s a very tiny percentage of men who would cross a line like the line that Joe Goldberg crosses. I came to writing as an adolescent because there’s something about the process of writing about someone that helps me to understand them. When you have to really clearly put the thoughts about that person on paper to bring them to life, I start to discover things, or be able to speculate in a way that feels grounded. And so, part of the allure of this show, for me personally, is that I really wanted to get into Joe Goldberg’s head. I really wanted to understand why he believes what he does.
Were there ever times where you were like, “I know this guy too well!,” and weren’t sure if that was a good thing?
GAMBLE: No, there’s no such thing as knowing someone too well. It’s a trap to say that people who do terrible things are so completely different than you or I. I think there’s a capacity to do a lot of different stuff, inside of each one of us, and we make choices. Instead of getting a nice, comfortable remove from Joe Goldberg and calling him a monster, it’s much more interesting, if it feels like I’m holding the show more accountable, in a good way.
What was it like to also get in Beck’s head a little bit, as well?
GAMBLE: I was really excited about that, from the beginning. As soon as Greg sent the book to me, I realized that it was an opportunity to go deeper and be more expansive in exploring her character than you often get a chance to do on a TV show. I wanted to have the chance to be able to say that, being a 20-something woman in a situation like Beck’s, you are a lot of things, at the same time. You are mature, and you are immature. You are smart, and you are naïve, in certain ways. You can be ambitious, and then also drawn to sparkly things. You can wish that you were of higher status. You can be in it for the likes, and then to promote yourself for a really mature, professional reason. I wanted to have the chance to move around and do all of those things. With this show, because we spend so much time watching her, we really get to know her.
And the audience gets to learn that there is so much more to her when you get inside of her head like that.
GAMBLE: Joe is not a reliable narrator. He’s watching her, and he is a Sherlock Holmes type. He does deduce a lot from what he sees, but he doesn’t know why. He just thinks he knows. So, it was important to start with his point of view, and then as time went on, start to introduce a more honest perspective on what she’s really thinking and doing. That way, you can compare and contrast when he’s right with when he’s wrong.
Do you want people to root for this relationship, or would you rather that they not root for these two to actually be together?
GAMBLE: We have tried not to force their hand, either way. We are purposely presenting some aspects of the relationship in the same beautiful, warm, intimate light as the romances you grew up loving, for a reason. Those stories are not so different. I grew up on this diet of movies where guys were chasing women through airports, and standing outside their window at night, and conspiring to shut down their independent bookstores, and doing all kinds of crazy, stalker shit. We’re making a point about what it really means that we root for those relationships. There were times, all through the season, when I found myself really rooting for their relationship, even knowing absolutely everything about both of them. I can’t help it because I love a romance. I think your mileage may vary, but the fun of the show, and the interesting thing that you’re able to experience watching the show, is that you can go, “Why am I having this reaction, right now? How can I be rooting for this, knowing what I know?” And then, you can start to figure out why you root for that.
Do you feel like you already have a pretty good sense of what Season 2 is going to be?
GAMBLE: Yeah. Things always change when you get into the writers’ room. But we have another book, and the writers’ room is absolutely overflowing with ideas, now that we’re moving to Los Angeles with the show. They’ve got a lot to say about L.A.
