With directorLynne Ramsay’sfantastic new movie,You Were Never Really Here, now playing in New York and Los Angeles, last week I did something incredibly cool: I got to sit down withJoaquin Phoenixfor an hourlong exclusive interview. Unlike most interviews where the person promoting the film sits in a hotel room for hours and reporters shuffle in and out every ten to fifteen minutes, what was so unusual and cool about this conversation is that I met up with him at a local Los Angeles hotel and we sat outside by the pool and talked without any publicists or other people around. As a huge fan of his work, getting to have an intimate conversation with Phoenix was an experience I’ll never forget and I’ll always be grateful to everyone that made this happen.
Since the interview covered so many subjects I’ve decided to break it into two parts. In today’s installment, Phoenix talks about how he got involved inYou Were Never Really Here, the unusual way he got into acting, if he’s interested in directing a feature, his thoughts on film versus digital filmmaking, how and why he went vegan, how he collected comics as a kid,Todd McFarlane, his first two autographs, superhero movies, why he hates Saturdays, and so much more.
Check out what he had to say below and if you live near a theater playingYou Were Never Really Here, I really recommend checking it out. It’s one of the best films I’ve seen this year.
Collider: You’re known as a pretty serious guy. I know you don’t like doing a whole bunch of press, so I think I want to start with a fun question which is what does Joaquin Phoenix do on a Saturday afternoon when he’s not filming?
JOAQUIN PHOENIX: Saturday’s a very slow day for me. It is. I actually dread Saturdays.
PHOENIX: I actually don’t have anything to do. It’s the worst day of the week.
Do you collect anything? Do you like going to a farmers' market?
PHOENIX: No.
You don’t collect anything in general?
PHOENIX: No. What do you mean collect?
Well some people like sneakers or collecting movie posters.
Have you ever collected anything?
PHOENIX: Yes. Comics, when I was a kid.
That’s awesome.
PHOENIX: Yes.
I did the same thing.
PHOENIX: I was very much into it. The funny thing is, I have a couple things. I can’t really remember what they were, but I rememberAmazing Spider-Man#298 was Todd McFarlane.
PHOENIX: Right? Wasn’t that the first …
Totally, #298 and #299.
PHOENIX: Then #299, and then #300.
That crazy red cover. Oh, dude I know.
PHOENIX: Right. And so, at the time though, I’m going “Geez, can you imagine what they’re going to be worth in the future?” Recently, I went home, went to my mom’s place and I had all my comics. I was like, “Oh my God, it’s finally happening. It’s 20 years later. This is going to be worth …” I went through it and I realized when you’re 13 years old, $200 is like fucking mega.
Yeah, it’s winning the lottery.
PHOENIX: I realized, “Now, they’re not worth that much.” I couldn’t believe that I still had them, some of them. That was the last thing that I collected.
Sure, but you know something, if you have aNew Mutants #87, like the first appearance of Deadpool, some of that’s worth good money.
PHOENIX: Yeah. Well, I guess. I don’t know, but some of them are really beautiful.
This is completely on a sidebar, but I got to interview Todd McFarlane, and as someone who grew up like you, reading his comics, I flipped out. I couldn’t believe I was talking to him, because he meant so much to me as a kid.
PHOENIX: I mean, come on, it was this massive quantum leap when suddenly you looked at his work. I had seen nothing like it. I mean there’s some beautiful artists, but he just had something that was revolutionary. It completely changed.
Completely. The way he drew the spiders, and the way he did Peter Parker. He had a very iconic style that you knew it was a McFarlane cover, just from a distance.
PHOENIX: Yeah, yeah.
Franchise movies are bigger than ever. I would imagine that you have probably been offered many franchises, superheroes, or all that stuff. Does that interest you at all, as an actor, or is it sort of that you want, I don’t want to say the word challenging enough, but it’s a little bit, sometimes it can be not a three dimensional character, if that makes any sense?
PHOENIX: I guess it depends. It depends on the character, and the filmmaker, and what they’re after. I wouldn’t refuse anything just based on the genre. I think about superhero movies the way that I imagine Westerns were. There were just these comics that were like Westerns, and then they started making movies. At some point, someone came along and was like, “Wait a minute, we can actually really explore something here, about humanity and the character.” I think that there’s that potential with any movie. I have had meetings, and I’ve gotten close to a couple of things, because I’ve thought, “There’s something in that character that might be interesting,” but ultimately it didn’t work out.
There was a lot of talk, and this was not the way I was going to go with the interview, butDr. Strange. There’s been talk about you and Joker. There’s been talk about a lot of stuff, and just some interesting filmmakers. The advantage of the superhero movie is these are some of the few films that have such a large canvas to work with, in terms of the budget and the way you may build a world. They’re very, very popular, and some of them are awesome.
PHOENIX: I mean who cares about popular? Sometimes having a limited budget might be really good. Something about having to work really hard, and adapt to your budget, that maybe creates something interesting, right?
PHOENIX: I think that’s probably … Isn’t that kind of what’ll happen? Sometimes a movie will work, and then they’ll do a sequel and they’ll have a bigger budget, and everyone kind of relaxes a little bit, and then it just gets progressively worse and worse?
The only thing for me is I look at the Marvel movies, and I think that what Kevin Feige has done over there has been very impressive, in terms of building this huge universe.
PHOENIX: Yeah. Amazing.
It’s hard to make one good movie, let alone all of these movies that … I look at a movie likeDrive, which I love, and was made on a very limited budget. I don’t know if you ever saw that?
PHOENIX: I don’t even know what it is.
The Ryan Gosling movie.
PHOENIX: Oh, okay. Sure.
That was made at a very small budget. I’m recommending it strongly, if you haven’t seen it. I enjoyed some of your music videos that you directed a number of years ago.
PHOENIX: Wow, you have terrible taste.
Come on. I like Silversun Pickups.
PHOENIX: Yeah, they’re great.
They have a very unique sound, sort of like McFarlane with the way he draws. I know that’s Silversun Pickups, you know what I mean?
PHOENIX: Mm-hmm (affirmative).
You directed like five or six music videos, what got you into that and what made you stop?
PHOENIX: My friends were doing a video and they basically just insisted that I do it. Yeah, I guess just curiosity got me into it, and then what got me out was reality. Just reality that it wasn’t what I was going to do. Yeah, it just wasn’t for me.
Did that sort of scratch an itch about directing? You’ve worked with such talented filmmakers, and I’m sure you’ve gleaned some really cool stuff from those sets. Is directing…
PHOENIX: I don’t know if I have. I really don’t pay attention to that. I still, I don’t know, like when somebody calls out a lens size, I have no idea what that means. I don’t know how wide it is. I try not to pay attention to that part of it, as much as I attempt to stay inside the character. Maybe I have. I’m sure some stuff maybe has rubbed off, but I have not studied it at all when I’m on set.
Is directing a feature something you’re interested in or is it something that you’re not sure you have the skill-set to do?
PHOENIX: I don’t know. I wouldn’t do it just to do it. I imagine if there was a story that I felt like I had a unique understanding of, then maybe it’s something I would pursue, but I haven’t really thought about it. I’ve worked with really great directors, and I don’t know if I have that. Do you know what I mean? If you work with people that were mediocre, if you were on set with a bunch of mediocre directors, you’d probably be like, “I think I could probably do that.”
PHOENIX: But then when you work with these people that are at the highest level. Sometimes you have fantasies where you go like, “I could probably play basketball,” or, “Maybe I could box.” Then you see people that really do it, you go like, “I could never fuck with that.” It’s kind of like that.
Jumping into why I get to talk to you today, I would imagine you get offered a bunch of scripts, when do you know when you’re reading a script, “I want to play this character. This is something that I feel.”
PHOENIX: It’s usually pretty immediate. 95% of the movies that I’ve done, I’ve known immediately that in a few pages.
When you get a script, does the director, or an agent, or someone, tell you what it’s about prior to you reading it, or do you typically start reading without knowing anything?
PHOENIX: Usually don’t know anything. Sometimes you will know a little bit in advance, but I prefer not to know anything in advance. This movie was different actually. I didn’t know right away that I wanted to do it. Part of it was it came during this period where first of all, I hadn’t worked for two years, and then suddenly I was looking at four different movies that all seemed interesting to me. I had decided on one, which is calledThe Sisters Brothers, which I was going to do, and that was going to shoot two summers ago, whatever it was. Then I had all these movies lined up.
When I spoke to Lynne, I said, “I’m doing these three other movies. There’s another one I’m looking at. So I’m not available until next year. It would be very difficult for me to tell you that I will definitely do this movie in a year’s time, because I don’t know how I’m going to feel. I don’t know if I could do that.” She said, “Okay, let’s just see how things unfold.” Then shortly thereafter, a few days I think, I got word that the movie I was supposed to do suddenly was postponed.
Then, I didn’t have anything. I was kind of like gearing up, I started having that feeling you get in your body where you’re like, “I think I’m getting ready to work.” So I called Lynne and I said, “Do you think you could get this movie going like,” I forget what it was, June or July, whatever, two years ago, which was, I think, nine weeks away. That was the only time that I could do it. She said yes.
It was different than I think other movies, in some ways, that I kind of had this expectation that I was doing this other movie, I started kind of reading that book. Then it switched. The next thing you know I was doing this, it happened so fast. Yeah, it was different.
What’s interesting about that is I would imagine for her, to book you in the project, she’s like, “Fuck, you want to do it next week? We’re going to start shooting.”
PHOENIX: No matter what, it takes a lot of guts and a lot of passion to do that. I mean typically, she would have lined up all of her key people well in advance, and then kind of begun pre-production. This was like directly into pre-production, and having to hire key people. It was really bold, and I thought that was super impressive. It was either impressive or really stupid, and I didn’t know which one, right?
PHOENIX: I liked her guts, you know?
You had that beard going prior, do you start growing that thing or you were rocking it already and just kept on going?
PHOENIX: Uuuhh, let’s see …
Because I like your look in the film a lot. You have the hood on. You have the huge beard. I’m just curious when did you guys decide that’s the look, and how much was it ready nine weeks early?
PHOENIX: I don’t think I had the beard. Really, I’m not sure, but I knew that I was going to shootMary Magdaleneafterwards, and I was going to have a beard. That kind of dictated that I have a beard in this. I knew it was going to happen, but I don’t know whether I’d already begun growing it or what. I can’t remember.
I think I asked this in the room with you at Sundance, I don’t think you actually answered, so I want to ask you, because I’m very curious about the craft of acting. Some people I’ve spoken to keep part of the character they’re playing with them at all times, because they want to be able to kind of switch it on when they leave set, come back. How much can you leave the character you’re playing when you leave set? How much does it stay with you during the entire shoot?
PHOENIX: What’s the character? At some point, if it’s that outside of me, if it’s a choice, then I’m doing something fucking wrong. If I’m making a decision, if I go, “This is the character now and this is how it goes,” I don’t fucking know. Everything that I’m doing when I’m working is the character. I don’t really understand this idea of like, “My character would never do that.” I always feel like anything’s possible. You don’t know what’s going to work or not. I feel like I’m always discovering the character ‘til the end of shooting, even beyond shooting, if I look back and think about things. Just reacting to the environment. I don’t really know what happens there honestly.
I guess what I’m saying is if you’re playing a very intense person, and you’re intense on set and that’s the person you’re playing, very intense. Oftentimes, I’ve spoken to actors who say that when they leave set, it sort of stays with them during the whole shoot, like if you’re playing this kind of a role. I’m just curious if you have something similar.
PHOENIX: I don’t know that … I guess it works like that for some people. There were times on this, what we’re doing, an intense scene, and in between setups me and Lynne are outside and she’s telling me some funny story from her childhood. I’m not constantly full of rage. I don’t know what happens. I wonder if that’s true, I guess it is for people. I guess that I’m just always, whatever it is that I’m feeling is the character.
Some actors love the Clint Eastwood method of shooting the rehearsal, a take or two, they’re done. Others love the Fincher method of doing a ton, and finding what you’re exploring. How do you typically like to work?
PHOENIX: I think it’s probably different. I don’t know.
Has anyone ever asked you to do 40 takes?
PHOENIX: No. I think I did … I don’t know. I’m sure there’s been some things that I’ve done a lot of takes, but I don’t think … I don’t really know. I don’t know what the right way to work is. I don’t think that I’m … I think that when it’s at its best, I’m not aware of what’s happening. The best thing that can happen is that I don’t know how many takes we’ve done or whether anything is good or isn’t good.
It sounds to me like you’re in the moment and not exploring what’s around you.
PHOENIX: I’m certainly trying to be. There are times where all I see are flags, and lights, and boom operators, and I’m like, “Fuck, I’m so aware that we’re making a movie.” That’s just crushing to your spirit. I’m just desperately trying always to be in a place where I don’t notice those things. If time has just passed suddenly and they say, “All right, that’s lunch,” I go, “What? It was just fucking 7:00 AM. It’s lunch?” I go, “Okay good, maybe that was a good day,” and that we got something worthwhile.
Do you find working with less people on set is better? Do you not notice that?
PHOENIX: Again, it depends. It’s my preference to keep it as small as possible, but when you’re in the creative flow, there could be 100 people throwing fruit at you, and you wouldn’t fucking notice. Then there’s times where you’re just not in it, and you’re hyper aware of everything. Just somebody walking over there in your peripheral throws you off. I do prefer an intimate set, but the truth is, is that if I think that I’m in it, it doesn’t make a difference.
You’ve been in the business for a while. You’ve gone from film, to now everyone’s doing digital. Do you have a preference between film and digital? Do you think that movie making has lost a little bit of its magic by not using film anymore?
PHOENIX: I don’t know. It’s just different. I wonder if people thought that movies lost magic when they introduced audio.
That’s a totally valid thing.
PHOENIX: I will say, I made so many movies on film, I thinkHermight have been the first movie that I made that was digital. I know that there’s something honestly as … It’s hard to say. There’s something that’s great about not having to reload so often, just do take after take, but then sometimes when you do have to do that, you go, “There’s only so much film here, you have to do it.” That creates an energy also. You get into this space where you’re just reacting to the actual atmosphere of making the movie, is a part of the movie. It’s like the condition that you’re reacting to. I think it just changes the process of making the movie, but I don’t know whether one’s better or not, in terms of being actor, like acting, I don’t know if one’s better or not.
I am constantly amazed at some of the quality that’s being on the small screen, whether it be FX, HBO, Netflix, there’s just a lot of interesting stuff being produced. Is playing a character on a show that could be eight or ten episodes for multiple seasons, something that you …
PHOENIX: Ugh.
There we go, that’s the answer right there.
PHOENIX: Ugh. Awful.
You’re not interested in something that could go seasons, but would you be interested in doing something that was like an eight or ten episode series?
PHOENIX: I’m not really interested in it, but who knows? Maybe I would be. It’s funny, because what are these shows? Everybody always says, “Oh, this is fucking amazing. You’ve got to check this out.” I’ve tried to watch the shows, and I think they’re all fucking garbage. I’ve got to be honest.
Let’s start right at the …
PHOENIX: Not to say that I’m in a position to judge other things. I’m not being righteous, but what are they?
I’m going to start at the top. Have you seenThe Wire?
PHOENIX: Oh wait, we’re not doing this game. No way, no fucking way. No way.
I get it, you haven’t watched that much.
PHOENIX: No, I honestly just don’t want to talk shit about people.
Completely.
PHOENIX: But I haven’t seenThe Wire.
Is there any TV shows, instead of getting you in trouble, are there any shows that you have seen, or growing up, that you really loved? This way it’s open to what you’ve seen and not me commenting on bringing anything to light.
You’re not a big TV person.
Let’s talk about movies. Do you remember, as a kid, what it was that first made you say, “I want to do that. That’s something that I want to do.”
PHOENIX: It was backwards. I wasn’t exposed to very many movies or television before I started working. I didn’t watch shows and go, “Oh, I want to do that.” We just didn’t really watch a lot of TV. I feel like, what did I see? I probably sawGreasewith John Travolta, I probably saw that movie, and I probably watchedCHiPs.
By the way,CHiPswas awesome.
PHOENIX: Listen, you know what? The two autographs I got were Erik Estrada and John Travolta, those were the two autographs I got as a kid. My mom worked at NBC, and so I feel like I had memories of watching some of their shows at her office. We used to go to the office, and her boss was a casting director. His name was Joel Thurm. He’s the person who is probably responsible for us kids being actors. He was the one that kind of set us up with who became our agent, Iris Bergman. She was kind of the kids' talent agent at that period.
For me, it was, like that moment of, “I want to do that,” was, “I want to do this,” because it was something I was experiencing. I was working. I did my first job when I was eight years old. It was the feeling that I had made me say, “I want to do this.” It wasn’t that I saw somebody else up on a screen and I was like, “I want to do that.” I was like, “I want to do this.”
Like, “What is happening here right now?” It’s a different way into it. It’s funny, I’d never really thought about that distinction. It wasn’t something that I saw that I wanted to experience. It was something that I experienced and I was like I want more.
It’s so interesting, because most people do it the opposite way.
PHOENIX: Yeah, just lucked out.
Am I wrong? I could be wrong when I say this, but didn’t you do an episode ofCHiPswhen you were a kid?
PHOENIX: I don’t think I didCHiPs. I probably desperately wanted to. I did an episode ofThe Fall Guy, do you rememberThe Fall Guy?
Yes. I knew it was one of those shows from the late 70s, early 80s, but I didn’t know what it was. Lee Majors,The Fall Guy, I know exactly what it was.
I’m sure you do not enjoy the taking pictures and signing autographs, and what comes along with being an actor. Maybe you do. But do you find, because you mentioned Travolta and Estrada as a kid and wanting their autographs, do you find that when you see kids that want autographs from you, that you are more, “I want to go give them to them,” or do you sort of still feel that, do you know what I mean?
PHOENIX: Mm-hmm (affirmative). I don’t remember ever, maybe it’s happened, but I don’t remember ever a kid wanting my autograph or being aware of it. Usually, the autographs are people that seem like they’re pros. Like what they do is gather autographs and sell them.
Totally, yes.
PHOENIX: Which is fine. It still seems like it’s a hustle, so good for them. I don’t have really a problem with autographs. I don’t really have a problem with any of it, other than just sometimes it makes you feel foolish. But, you know …
I’m really into animal rights, and I know you are too. This is completely not about moviemaking, but it’s something I want to talk about because I love animals. What was it about, that got you into wanting to support animal rights? How did that all come up in your life? Do you remember?
PHOENIX: Yeah. Really it was seeing these fish being killed when I was on a boat as a kid. They were catching fish, and I guess to stun them they were throwing them against the side of the boat. I just had a profound strong reaction. It felt like a real injustice. It wasn’t just me, it was my siblings, all of my siblings, except for the youngest, Summer, she wasn’t born. My mom was pregnant with her. I don’t know how to explain it. I think it made me distrustful, and angry, and frightened of humans, humanity. I just thought it was such a gross abuse of power in a way. I think that during that moment we knew that we were not going to eat meat anymore. We said to our parents, “Why didn’t you tell us?” It’s amazing. I remember my mom’s face, I remember her crying. She didn’t know how to answer. It became very obvious we weren’t going to eat meat anymore.
Do you remember how old you were?
PHOENIX: I was four.
Wow, that is amazing.
PHOENIX: Then my brother, a few months later, said, “We shouldn’t be using dairy either. It’s not killing them, but …” Then we became vegan and my sister Summer was born vegan.
Since then you’ve been vegan, or have you had like …
PHOENIX: There was a time when I remember being in San Diego as a kid, I was visiting a friend, and they got pizza.
This is the cheat pizza.
PHOENIX: I was like, “Let me fucking check that shit out.”
Right, because you smelled it and you were like, “That smells real good.”
PHOENIX: I ate that, but I got very sick.
Oh, because you hadn’t had dairy. Sure, you paid the price.
PHOENIX: Yeah, just like glue, chemical glue.
Look for part 2 of my conversation with Joaquin Phoenix in the coming days.
